Debate contribution: Minister of Education: Visit to Israel

Debate contribution by Mr Paul Givan on 3 November 2025.

MLA

Mr Paul Givan

Party at the time

Democratic Unionist Party

Date

3 November 2025

Type

Debate contribution (made as a minister)

Business

Questions for Urgent Oral Answer

Heading

Minister of Education: Visit to Israel

Assembly identifier

Official Report component 5213355

Read the official Assembly record

Text

The Member should listen to the Ulster Farmers' Union's position on her own party's Agriculture Minister and his suitability for that ministerial office. Members have set a very low bar for passing no-confidence motions. Indeed, one Minister is elected, with cross-community support, by the Assembly, so be careful what you wish for. The Alliance Party now allows Gerry Carroll to lead it. Maybe that is part of the internal discussions: we all know what is going on in the Alliance Party. It is now being led by Gerry Carroll, who, on 7 October, tweeted, "Victory to the Palestinian Resistance". There has been no condemnation of Gerry Carroll from Michelle Guy — no condemnation whatsoever. I have explained the basis of the visit. It is interesting that the Alliance Party, proponents of integrated education, are hostile towards a visit to an integrated school. When I was in Israel, I had the opportunity to meet a member of the Opposition in the Knesset. He talked about how, eight years ago, when he had responsibility for education, he brought 25 Arab principals and 25 Jewish principals here to gain insight into Northern Ireland. In Jerusalem, I witnessed people — Arab communities, Jewish communities and people from the Armenian Christian Church and Orthodox Christian Church — living side by side, navigating their differences, in a very diverse way. That is far from the malign intent of an "apartheid regime" in what is, indeed, the only democratic country in the Middle East. The Alliance Party would do well to remove the shackles of the extreme left wing and the likes of Gerry Carroll, who is leading them.

I thank Dr Aiken for the question. I also commend him for going on the visit and making a Member's statement about it.

When it comes to the visit, I know very clearly which side he is on. I commend and pay tribute to him. When we visited the school, we heard how the children have to actively practise fleeing to the bomb shelter —

— because of the rocket attacks that have been inflicted on them by Hamas. What does Hamas do in its schools? It indoctrinates its children to kill Jews, saying, "Death to Israel".

It builds terrorist infrastructure and uses the children as human shields. That is what Hamas does.

It was also interesting to hear on the visit that, as a result of what happened on 7 October, 45,000 children were displaced, because there were movements of people from northern and southern Israel. They all had to leave their schools.

It was remarkable how the Israeli education system had established those facilities to try to react to that. Do you know what they said about the experience of those children when they came back to school?

Many of them could not talk because of how they had been traumatised. Children have been traumatised in the Middle East. They have been used and abused in Gaza and weaponised by Hamas terrorists, the very same terrorists with whom Mr Sheehan was photographed.

It would have been very strange for us to visit Israel but not take the opportunity to visit a school. That visit was organised and facilitated by the hosts.

Members, again, want to shout down the message. The tactic for the past four or five days has been to holler abuse

and drown out a different opinion because they do not like what is being said. It is interesting. If we lived in a truly liberal society, we would respect other people's opinions, but there is no respect shown by those who claim to be liberals. Instead, it is a case of let us have that domination of a contrary opinion. Suppress them so that they do not feel comfortable in saying it. Regrettably, for those opposite and others in the Chamber, I am not one of those people who yields to the kind of bullying and intimidation that I have witnessed from many Members in the House.

The Member is interested in genocide. Why was the Chair of Fermanagh and Omagh District Council, Barry McElduff, in China last week? You are concerned about genocide: let us look at the genocide of the Uyghur community that is taking place in China? China has that community engaged in forced labour in camps. There are forced sterilisations, mass arbitrary detentions, cultural and religious erasure, surveillance and family separation. If we are to have consistency on genocide, where is her condemnation of her own colleague for going to China?

That proves the double standard that we have become well accustomed to from Sinn Féin. We will not be lectured by Sinn Féin on such things.

They just need to calm down. We hear the anger.

Listen —

You may have tried to bully other people in the past, but it will not work with me

You may not like the answers, but you will listen to them from me today, tomorrow, next week, next month and next year

As I have said, it was entirely acceptable for me, Dr Aiken, a TUV councillor and the leader of the Welsh Conservative Party to visit that school. Members would have been critical of a delegation to Israel that refused to go into East Jerusalem, where there is a majority Arab community, and to experience what it has to live with. The same Members would have condemned us for not doing that. We went to listen. We heard clearly about what many people in Jerusalem and across Israel have had to experience. Do you know what it was like in pre-1967 East Jerusalem under Jordanian rule? Jews were not allowed in. Christians were not allowed in. They were refused access to a lot of the holy sites in the city. Under Israeli rule, all the sites are open, irrespective —

— of the religious differences in Jerusalem. The Member shouts, "Rubbish": I was there last week, so I have witnessed it.

We know that other Members visited, but they went to visit Hamas

That is what they did when they visited

I thank the Member for his question. At no time did departmental officials suggest to me that I was in breach of any rules relating to my ministerial duties. Opponents want my civil servants in the Department to have acted in a highly political manner when it came to the statement that was released. That would have been to invite them not to act impartially under the direction and control of the democratically elected Minister but to usurp the authority of those who are in elected office. I repeat it for the benefit of all Members and the media who have been listening that this has been reviewed by the senior officials in my Department, and the permanent secretary has given a clean bill of health when it comes to every civil servant who engaged with the visit and to my conduct as Minister.

I am repeating for, I think, the fourth time that it has been reviewed by my permanent secretary and senior officials, who have found that I and every official in the Department acted entirely appropriately when it comes to the visit. There are no issues to see here, despite those who want to manufacture them. The Member said that the Alliance Party had been entirely consistent. I remember a time when the Alliance Party condemned terrorists. Now, the Alliance Party does not even know what an innocent victim of terrorism is. I remember a time when the Alliance Party used to find space to vote with DUP colleagues in the Chamber. Now, the Alliance Party walks through the Lobbies led by Gerry Carroll. When the vote on the no confidence motion comes, it will troop into the Lobby behind Gerry Carroll, the man who posted, "Victory to the Palestinian Resistance". How far the Alliance so-called cross-community Party has fallen that it is now in the pretty appalling position that it has found itself in.

The Member is in lockstep with Hamas. That is who he is in step with, and that is who he was commending and celebrating on 7 October. Hamas, which has brutally murdered, raped and killed babies and children. The Member should go to Gaza and take his left-wing policies and ideology and see how he will be treated in Gaza. He might not get back out if he were to articulate the views that he has on Hamas and Gaza. I note that Matthew O'Toole is not here. That is probably appropriate, because we now have the real leader of the Opposition, Gerry Carroll, leading Alliance, the SDLP and Sinn Féin. I give credit to Gerry Carroll: at least he is honest. At least he does not try to hide the antisemitic position that he holds. Others in the Chamber masquerade as being against racism. It is clear that the mask has truly slipped.

The Member asks a very important question. In the past, questions have been asked about minutes and notes of meetings that have taken place when it comes to China. I know the position that I have when it comes to engaging with China: I do not. They are committing genocide. This, however, is the challenge: it is the inconsistency, particularly of Sinn Féin, and the inconsistent approach. If you are claiming to be against genocide in Israel, why are you not against genocide when it comes to China and the Uyghur community? It is the inconsistency and double standards. Let us see how principled Sinn Féin is in the days, weeks and months ahead when it comes to its engagements with the human rights-violating People's Republic of China.

We met members of the Israel Defense Forces. Here is what we witnessed. We were in the outpost right on the Gaza border. Do you know what happened on 7 October? Hamas came into that outpost, took 19 unarmed females, put them into a room, rolled up tyres, set them on fire and suffocated the women to death. They burnt them alive. All that was left was their military dog tags for their families. The party opposite talks about gender equality and ending violence against women, but it does not worry about the violence by Hamas terrorists against women in Israel.

I agree with the Member, and I thank him for being part of the delegation. Members clearly do not like the report that we are bringing back on the devastation that happened in Israel. They do not like to hear the truth. Well, you are going to have to get used to hearing the truth.

You can continue to shout me down; I will continue to give you back the answers that you need to hear.

I am being —.

Members opposite are shouting about those with international arrest warrants and criminal convictions. Am I living in a parallel universe? I ask the Members opposite this: how many of you were incarcerated in the Maze prison, in Maghaberry or in Crumlin Road because of your terrorist criminal convictions? How many of your family members were engaged in terrorism? You have the audacity to sit there and lecture me and others about this visit to Israel. Seriously? You may have been sanitised by others who in 1998 were weak on the Belfast Agreement, and you may be acceptable to the British Government, who have failed to deal with Sinn Féin's politics effectively, but we will continue to stand up to, expose and confront your politics, because that is what we have to do in the Assembly and in the Executive. Get used to it.

Yes, absolutely. That is why I will continue getting on with the job. When I came into post, we faced a crisis in special educational needs placements, and we established thousands of extra places. This year, we had to establish thousands of extra places. Whilst others want to detract and take us away from those issues, my job is to continue to deliver, and I will deliver by creating those places. I have published all the details on area planning. I say this to the Member and to Sinn Féin: I brought forward a costed, detailed, 10-year strategic plan for children with special needs, but Sinn Féin still has not put it on the agenda. When will Sinn Féin put things such as that on the Executive agenda? My focus is very much on helping children with special educational needs. I am also focused on ensuring that our teachers, who got a pay rise of over 11% under me, as Minister, which was more than under any other Minister in previous years, are represented. I will continue to represent those teachers and get on with doing my job while others just want to distract from it.

I agree with the Member. What we have in evidence here is a mob mentality of shouting down and seeking to intimidate. That is not going to happen. I will continue to speak up for those who need to have their voices heard. I was in Yad Vashem, the national Holocaust memorial centre. I will remember the six million Jews who were persecuted during the Holocaust. I will remember Boaz in the kibbutz of Malkia on the border with southern Lebanon, who has endured Hezbollah rocket attacks raining down on his community. I will remember the Druze community, which is an Arab community, in Majdal Shams, where Hezbollah killed 12 innocent children playing on a football pitch. I will remember Rita in the kibbutz of Nir Oz, where 117 people were either murdered or taken hostage on 7 October. I will remember the 378 victims at the Nova festival and the voice of Yair, who spoke about how, although he was able to escape, 44 other people were taken hostage and held captive. I will remember those people. I can condemn violence on all sides. I can think about and have empathy with all innocent civilians. I will, however, not stand by and listen to those who have supported and promoted Hamas terrorism. Hamas has destroyed Gaza. The people of Gaza need liberated from those Hamas terrorists so that they can have a free Palestine without terrorists ruling it. That is what needs to happen. Members can therefore reflect on the stories that I have relayed to them. I await with interest their showing any concern at all for the people to whom I have referred.

I quite happily associate myself with the remarks of the Chairman of the Education Committee. I bore witness to how children in those schools in Gaza have been entirely indoctrinated. Hamas is not just a paramilitary terrorist organisation but the political infrastructure of Gaza. It controls the schools and the hospitals. It controls the social welfare system. Do you know how you get a better pension scheme in Gaza? The more Jews whom you kill, the bigger your pension scheme is. That is what the Hamas-run Gazan territory is about. Schools and hospitals are being used by terrorists as infrastructure and for tunnels. It is the terrorists who have abused the civilians and children of Gaza.

I thank the Member for his question. The legislation sets out specific obligations for Ministers concerning transparency, accountability and the conducting of official business. Those obligations apply only to relevant meetings, which are defined as prearranged meetings with third parties to conduct official business. Having reviewed all engagements during the Israel visit and consulted officials, my permanent secretary and I have concluded that none of them meets that definition. The visit to Ofek School was a tour rather than a formal meeting. It did not involve an agenda or agreed actions. The focus was on having the school leader share insights into educational practice while fact-finding, which is relevant to my portfolio. It did not constitute a meeting to conduct official business in the formal sense that is required by the Act.

2,655 words. Text as published by the Northern Ireland Assembly.

Assessment

Qualifying Religion and belief (including people of no religion), churches, faith communities and religious prejudice (including antisemitism and anti-Muslim prejudice)

Jev’s structured answers

Assessed 21 October 2026 at 13:47 UTC by jev-1.13.0 (requested as typesafe/jev) under rubric 2026.10-r9, methodology 1.9.

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