Debate contribution: Northern Ireland Fiscal Council Bill: Second Stage

Debate contribution by Mr John O'Dowd on 1 July 2025.

MLA

Mr John O'Dowd

Party at the time

Sinn Féin

Date

1 July 2025

Type

Debate contribution (made as a minister)

Business

Executive Committee Business

Heading

Northern Ireland Fiscal Council Bill: Second Stage

Assembly identifier

Official Report component 5061306

Read the official Assembly record

Text

I thank the Members who contributed to the Bill's Second Stage debate. I will try to cover as many of the points that were made by Members as possible. The Chair of the Committee said that he was going to be constructive. He was, for most of his contribution. The general view of Members — not ignoring the views of Mr Carroll — is that they welcome the fact that we are moving to a statutory footing for the Fiscal Council. It is important that we move to that statutory footing and establish it on that basis. We need to give it the legal protection and powers that it requires to carry out its functions. I look forward to the debates at Committee and during the further stages of the Bill, and to hearing the pros and cons and the different opinions, some of which have been voiced here today, as to how we should manage the Fiscal Council.

For a variety of reasons, there was a delay in the legislation's being introduced, but we have had an opportunity to test-drive the model. It works, by and large, and Members, with the odd exception, will generally agree that it does. Let us therefore not approach the legislation as reinventing the wheel. The Fiscal Council has proved its independence from the Department of Finance. I will listen to the debate as the Bill progresses. Members may argue that the Fiscal Council should be funded directly through the Audit Office or that it should be directly responsible to the Assembly. The counterargument to that, however, is that the current system is working and that all Budgets are approved by the Department of Finance and the Executive, because the Department produces the Budget and the Executive vote on it. Ultimately, if people want to interfere with the independence of the Fiscal Council through its budgetary framework, they can do so. If they are minded to interfere, they can. Thus far, however, the Fiscal Council has proven itself to be independent, robust and strong in how it does its work. Its challenge functions and its support functions have proved very beneficial to me as Minister of Finance, to the Executive and to the work of the Committee.

As I have said, the purpose of scrutinising legislation is to see whether it is fit for purpose, but it is also to see whether it can be improved. I am willing to listen, but I caution Members against reinventing the wheel for the sake of it or trying to get one over the Department of Finance. The Member has made a valid point, and our engagement with the Treasury has been strengthened by the role that the Fiscal Council plays. The credibility that it brings to the debate has allowed us to engage with the Treasury on all those matters. A number of Members mentioned clause 5. Subsection (5) confirms that, once the legislation has passed, no changes can be made to it without regulations being brought to the Assembly for approval. Mr Frew asked why councillors are to be excluded from being members of the Fiscal Council and why MPs are not to be excluded. The NI Assembly Disqualification Act 1975 disqualifies MPs from being Members of the Assembly. Members already know that. We will further clarify Mr Frew's point about whether MPs and TDs should also be listed in schedule 1. If further disqualifications need to be included in the legislation, so be it. If there is no bar in some other area to that happening, I do not see any problem with doing that. The Fiscal Council has its role, but let us not surrender the Assembly's role to any other body or institution. The Assembly has the democratic authority. Everyone in the Chamber has been elected by the people to do a job, and part of that job is to hold Ministers to account and to pass legislation and Budgets. When we are establishing bodies and commissions that, on the face of it, do good work, and the Fiscal Council does do good work, we have to be mindful and careful that we are not ceding power to anyone else. We are the democratic authority, and we must always be very precious about and protective of that. When we give powers to others, we must ensure that we are doing so truly for good and that doing so does not undermine our authority or our role. Although doing so may be well intentioned, it further undermines our position in the minds of the general public, because they say to themselves, "What is the point of having you, if all those other bodies do those jobs?"

Indeed. We should never cede power to commissioners, ombudsmen and others in such roles. We are the democratic authority, and we should be precious about that. I look forward to working through the Bill and scrutinising it with Members. Mr Carroll commented on the council's reports thus far. Here is the thing: the Executive, Members and I, as Minister, do not have to agree with everything that the Fiscal Council says. In fact, we do not have to agree with anything that the Fiscal Council says. It does a job. That job has been worthwhile thus far. Placing the council on a statutory footing is a worthwhile proposal. I hope that the Bill's broad principles will be accepted today. We will then work with the Committee and others to bring the finalised legislation to the House. Hopefully, that will happen in the near future.

927 words. Text as published by the Northern Ireland Assembly.

Assessment

Not flagged

Jev’s structured answers

Assessed 21 October 2026 at 12:58 UTC by jev-1.13.0 (requested as typesafe/jev) under rubric 2026.10-r9, methodology 1.9.

Disagree with this assessment?

Classifications can be challenged. A person reads every challenge, and any change is recorded publicly above with its reason.

Challenge this classification