Debate contribution: Northern Ireland Fiscal Council Bill: Second Stage

Debate contribution by Mr Paul Frew on 1 July 2025.

MLA

Mr Paul Frew

Party at the time

Democratic Unionist Party

Date

1 July 2025

Type

Debate contribution

Business

Executive Committee Business

Heading

Northern Ireland Fiscal Council Bill: Second Stage

Assembly identifier

Official Report component 5061245

Read the official Assembly record

Text

Like my colleague Diane Forsythe, I support the Bill. It is long overdue. As the Chair of the Committee said, it was to be in last year's legislative programme, but, at least, we have it in front of us today. I am one of the MLAs who would say that we should not have more fiscal powers, simply because we do not have the capacity to deal with more or even, sometimes, the maturity to deal with more. I fear that, if there were to be more fiscal powers, those levers would be pulled upwards and would hurt our people further. The Northern Ireland Fiscal Council is the right way to go to have that layer of expertise and independence in how Northern Ireland's finances are conducted. I certainly support that, because it will give reassurance and a layer of expertise that will help not only the Department and the Finance Committee but all scrutiny Committees through the reports that they will be able to read from the Fiscal Council. We have already seen the Fiscal Council's worth, albeit on a non-statutory footing. The council currently costs around £511,000 a year. That was for 2024-25. That is money well spent — it really is — because of the calibre of the reports and the information contained in them. It helps us all — each one of us as MLAs — to scrutinise the work of the Executive and, indeed, the Department of Finance and all other Departments for that matter. It is crucial. I may have some issues and questions as we go into deeper scrutiny of the Bill. The Chair of the scrutiny Committee made the point about who actually pays for it and where the money comes from to pay for the Fiscal Council. It has come out of the black box stuff and the Department of Finance. That may change with regard to the black box stuff with the other vehicle of legislation that we will debate today. There is a question about whether it is best placed to be funded by the Department of Finance, which probably has most to lose from some of the Fiscal Council reports and may well be red-faced and embarrassed by some of those reports. If we want to ensure that there is real independence and separation between the Department of Finance and the Fiscal Council, we, as a scrutiny Committee and, indeed, as the Assembly, should consider how best to fund the Fiscal Council going forward. The Committee Chair raised the issue of the Audit Committee, the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Audit Office. That may well be an avenue that we could explore. In schedule 1, under

"Manner in which functions are to be carried out",

it states that

"The Council must aim to carry out its functions efficiently and cost-effectively."

Who attests to that? Should that be the Audit Office or the Audit Committee, or should it be the Department of Finance that attests to that? Under clause 5, on the

"Power to confer additional functions",

it states that

"The Department may by regulations confer additional functions on the Council."

Again, there are questions there as to whether it should solely be —.

Yes, I will.

Yes. That is certainly something worth exploring. We could probably concentrate our resources on that in the time ahead during Committee Stage. The power to confer additional functions is maybe not the one to highlight. Clause 5(2) states:

"(2) The Department may by regulations alter or remove any functions conferred under subsection (1)."

That might worry me. You might have a Department that has been embarrassed by one or two reports and decides to remove functions of the Fiscal Council to relieve that embarrassment from time to time. Again, I am playing devil's advocate. I am not suggesting for one moment that the Minister or the Department would do that.

Yes.

I thank the Minister for that clarification. I was going on to that, because clause 5(5) contains the words "approved by a resolution of" the Assembly, which are sprinkled throughout the Bill. That brings an aspect or a veneer of confidence to the Bill. We will pursue that. Paragraph 8 of schedule 1 states:

"A person is disqualified from being appointed as the chair or another member of the Council if the person — (a) is a member of — (i) a district council, or (ii) the Assembly".

Why have Members of Parliament been left off that list? I an understand why Assembly Members are excluded, but members of a district council? Why, then, are Members of Parliament and, for that matter, Members of the Irish Parliament not excluded too? We need to explore that. There might be a rationale for it — I do not know — but, on reading the Bill for the first time, it seems that that might be an omission. I am not saying that there are not Westminster MPs or Members of the Irish Parliament who could do the job, but why are we excluding district councillors who may well be qualified in that regard? Maybe the Minister will take that away and look at it. Paragraph 13 of schedule 1 states that:

"The Council is to employ a person to act as the Council’s chief of staff."

Chief of staff will be a very important role. Are we allowing a district councillor, an Assembly Member or a Member of Parliament to become the council's chief of staff? Chief of staff might be a full-time job — maybe you could not do both jobs. Maybe we need clarification regarding staff and who can be the Fiscal Council's chief of staff. Paragraph 13 also states:

"The Council may employ other staff. The chief of staff and other Council staff are to be employed on such terms as the Council, with the approval of the Department, determines."

Again, that goes back to the approval of the Department. That is all from me at Second Reading. I look forward to the scrutiny of the Bill. We have looked forward to it for a long time. I was on the Finance Committee in the previous term, when we talked about and pushed for it. It is great to have it in front of us and to have the blue pages in our hands. We look forward to the scrutiny of the Bill.

1,064 words. Text as published by the Northern Ireland Assembly.

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