Debate contribution: Anti-poverty Strategy

Debate contribution by Mr Gordon Lyons on 17 June 2025.

MLA

Mr Gordon Lyons

Party at the time

Democratic Unionist Party

Date

17 June 2025

Type

Debate contribution (made as a minister)

Business

Ministerial Statement

Heading

Anti-poverty Strategy

Assembly identifier

Official Report component 5013462

Read the official Assembly record

Text

Of course I will listen to the consultation. That is the whole point of it. I will pick up on a couple of issues that the Member raised, the first of which is targets. No, there are no targets on it, because, as I have said before, targets will come later in the action plan, and monitoring will come at that stage as well. It is simply not the case that these are actions that we have already taken, but we will, of course, continue what we are doing that is working. We were not going to wait until the development of an anti-poverty strategy before we brought in some of the measures that will make a difference. As I have just said, we will bring in more actions. For example, I am bringing forward a fuel poverty strategy and new employment programmes. The Member's colleagues in other Departments will bring forward new actions. I think that people have jumped on to a notion that there is nothing new in this. If you read the document, you will see the new actions that are there, but, of course, the full action plan will follow as well. It is easy to be critical and find things that, you may believe, are disagreeable, but we should at least base our comments on facts and what will actually be in the strategy, which the Member and others have seen.

We have the benefit of seeing what has taken place and what has worked in Scotland. The first thing that we have to recognise is that we live in a time of constrained budgets, so we have to make sure that we put the resources that we have into the areas that will make the most difference. We have not seen that in Scotland. Over the last number of years, Scotland has been spending £471 million every year on the child payment: that has hardly moved the needle on child poverty. That is why we have taken the approach of helping people who are facing poverty right now but also trying to help people not to fall into poverty in the first place. That is why it is so important that we tackle the root causes of poverty, and that is what I will focus on.

Of course, I will always report to the Committee on the issues, and we will have monitoring in place. Again, I encourage people to read the entirety of the document and to recognise and consider the fact that a more detailed action plan will be coming later. I would emphasise that there is a consultation process. I have heard many voices over recent weeks say, "There's not enough in here". What I am not hearing much about is what people would like to see. Whenever I met groups and individuals, I did not hear specific actions that people would like to see in place. That is the part of the consultation —

No, that is fair enough. That is part of the consultation process, so I would like to hear from people what they would like included and how that would tie in with Executive priorities and affordability.

It is absolutely right that we are held to account on the strategy. We are out to consultation right now, and the Member will see, in the consultation document, the governance structures that will be around the strategy and the monitoring that will be in place. We intend to have an anti-poverty strategy board that will be responsible for delivery under the strategy's three pillars. We will consider how those who are facing these issues and the organisations that support them will be involved in that. That is part of the consultation process so that people can give their views.

That was the whole point of engaging with Departments beforehand to ask, "What are you doing, what are you going to continue to do, and what new things can you do?". That is why I think that we have a realistic set of proposals that, over time, Ministers can add to. This will be agile and flexible. I hope, therefore, that Ministers will find a budget if additional budget is needed and if it is available. I encourage Ministers to speak to the Finance Minister. I encourage the Member to speak to the Finance Minister as well, because I will happily welcome any additional resource that can be committed to help to tackle poverty. I am sure that she will engage with her colleague the Finance Minister on that.

I am happy to tell the House again that this is a Department of delivery under the DUP. We are getting things done. We have brought forward the strategy when no one else did before. We have brought forward a housing supply strategy when no one else did before, and we got housing as a Programme for Government commitment after years of others asking for it, so I am more than happy to be making progress in this area. The Member is right to highlight the fact that not only were other Ministers asked for their input but they nominated officials to a working group. They were tasked specifically with bringing forward proposals, so, if there are issues not in the document, there should be questions to other Ministers about why that is, because everybody had the opportunity. It was before the Executive for six weeks. Other Ministers would have had the opportunity to say, "This is missing. We should add this. We should allocation more funding here as well.". I have the letters from all my Executive colleagues who responded. Obviously, they are confidential, but clearly there was support for the strategy, or it would not have gone out for public consultation. The Department for Communities cannot tackle or solve poverty by itself. The Executive cannot tackle or solve poverty by themselves either, but we all need to work together, and that is why we have a joined-up approach where there is ample opportunity for feed-in from other Departments.

The reason why I have brought forward an anti-poverty strategy and not a separate child poverty strategy is that I do not think that you can separate the two. The impact of poverty on families is not unique to children. It is about family incomes and making sure that we do everything we can to raise the incomes and lower the costs for families as a whole. Free school meals is one element of that, but I go back to looking at the overall picture and the actions that we can take with the money that is available that will give the best value for money. Free school meals is one of those actions. Obviously, it is up to the Finance Minister, the Education Minister and other Executive colleagues to discuss the matter. The key question for me when it comes to my support for any such measures will be the difference that they make and whether they are the best use of the resources that we have.

First, I did not bring the co-design group to an end: it came to an end. The work had been completed, and I have met the group since. To answer the second question, I refer the Member to the answer I gave some moments ago. The co-design group raised a number of issues. For the Member's benefit, I mentioned welfare benefits; period poverty; fuel poverty; making school attendance cost-neutral; extended mitigation payments; pressurising the UK Government to maintain the pensions triple lock; the need for a childcare strategy; an early learning strategy; additional budget for a childcare subsidy; low pay and workers' rights; housing; the housing supply strategy; revitalisation of the Housing Executive; the transformation of the private rented sector; improving access to benefits, advice and support for older people; the uptake of pension credit; delivering Make the Call; wrap-around service; and helping people access benefits and the support and services that they are entitled to. I fully admit that there may be some things the co-design group brought forward that we have not included in the strategy, but to say that nothing is coming forward from the co-design group is demonstrably wrong.

I am grateful to the Education Minister, because there has been extensive engagement with him in that area. He has highlighted, as I have said, that we cannot lift children out of poverty without lifting families out of poverty. He has engaged with me on a number of issues — you will see them in the strategy — about how we can help with issues such as access to education and the costs of participating in education.

I pay credit to my Executive colleague, who has delivered and is continuing to deliver in that area, be it through tackling the cost of school uniforms, addressing the cost of access to education or providing additional resource for childcare, which the Member will be well aware of, given the impact that that is having. It is important that that be included in the strategy. Just because we are doing it does not mean that we should leave it out. We want to keep doing those things and build on them, as the Minister of Education is doing. I look forward to working closely with him, because he has a key role to play in ensuring that we tackle the issue.

Again, that is wrong: I have not chosen to ignore that advice. As I said, the place for targets will be in the action plan. We will put targets against the actions in the strategy that we have said that we will take. I want to be in a position where the strategy is measured and where we can be held to account, so, as I said before, targets will be there.

Each outcome will be underpinned by the action plan, which will be updated on an ongoing basis. A number of indicators will be used to monitor and track progress over time. That will be undertaken at the level of the pillars, and it will be done in a proactive and flexible manner. We will make sure that we use the appropriate statistics. As I said in the previous answer, I am keen to ensure that we are held to account on the issues that we have control over. It is very difficult for us to set a target on tackling wider poverty, because that is not within the gift of the Executive alone. The Member will be aware of macroeconomic issues that impact on UK Government policy. We have seen that through the increase in oil prices, even over the past number of days. I am more than happy for our delivery on the things that we are responsible for to be measured. We have targets for that, and I have already set out some of the objectives.

My response to the Member's first comment is that only one Minister has brought forward an anti-poverty strategy, and that is me. I am glad that she welcomes the work that I have done and the fact that I have progressed the strategy and got it to the stage where it has Executive agreement. I am grateful for her thanks and congratulations on that issue. On the governance structures, again, we are going through a period of consultation, and I will be happy to hear any other views on that. It remains an Executive strategy that will be overseen by the Northern Ireland Civil Service (NICS) and led by an anti-poverty strategy board. The board will be chaired by the head of the Civil Service and attended by Senior Civil Service representatives from all Departments. It will meet regularly to assess the effectiveness of the strategy, agree changes and updates to the action plan and sign off on formal reports. The anti-poverty strategy board will be supported in that work by the three pillar subcommittees, which will be chaired by a representative who is nominated by the permanent secretary of the relevant Department. That is what is in the strategy at this time, but, again, we are more than happy to sincerely take views from others about how it can best be monitored.

New actions will come forward. I have highlighted some of them already. In my Department, I have been working specifically on housing issues, such as the cost of housing and the cost of heating homes. It is important to note that the Executive got on with that work over the past 17 or 18 months. It would not have been right for us just to sit on our hands and do nothing, saying that we wanted to wait until the anti-poverty strategy was in place before we proceeded with some of the actions. We have been taking action. Specific targets are for a later conversation, when there is Executive agreement and as part of the action plan. I am, however, sincere when I say to the House and the wider public that I want to hear their views on what we can do. The Member mentioned particular figures for Scotland. There has been a decrease in child poverty there, but it is nowhere near the targets that the Scottish Government had set. Relative poverty, which is the measure used, was at 22% in 2023-24, and I believe that their target was to get it down to 18%. I also make the case that Scotland started from a lower base than we did. All that I am saying is that, if we are to tackle the issue effectively, we need to make sure that, in a time of limited resources, we put the resources that we have into the programmes and actions that will have the biggest impact on driving down poverty. We will be led by evidence and facts. It may well be the case that, throughout the lifetime of the strategy, we stop doing some of the things that I said in my statement that we are going to do, either because they are not working or because they are not having as big an impact as some of the other actions. We are determined to get the strategy right.

I have not disregarded that group's work. I met its members and asked for some of the specifics that they would like to see included that were not in there. I would like to have heard more from them, because, as I have said twice now —

— substantial actions have been taken. My colleague behind me urges me to say them all again. I am happy to do that, but I want to make the point that some actions have not been taken forward because of affordability issues. I could have stuffed the draft strategy with a wish list of things that I knew would never be deliverable or affordable, but I did not do that, because I am going to be honest with the people of Northern Ireland. I will put something on the table for agreement that we can deliver on and that will make a difference. I am not going to put into the strategy measures that I know that I will not get Executive support for or for which I will not get the budget. I hope that we can be agile and flexible. If additional resource comes in, and it is proven that putting it into action a or b will make a difference to people's lives, fantastic, and we will do that. The strategy will not be set in stone. I have asked the co-design group for more detail, however. I look forward to its providing additional information. I hope that we can discuss the issues with a little bit of truth and honesty.

I want to target poverty wherever it is found. I absolutely accept that it is a particular problem in the Member's constituency when compared with other constituencies. It is not about geographical location, however, but about tackling poverty wherever it is found. The issues that we are looking at, particularly in the draft strategy, are those that will tackle the root causes of poverty, and that is what I want to do. I genuinely want to work with the Member on that, because it is important. I have said that already. I will not be found wanting in working with everyone to help tackle poverty wherever it is found. It is in her constituency, but unfortunately it is not limited to one area; it can be found across Northern Ireland. I will do my best to ensure that we put in place actions that make a difference: to stop people falling into poverty in the first place; to stop the impact of poverty where it is found; and, importantly, to help people to get out of poverty. I will work with the Member on that.

I am not about stigmatising anybody. The actions that were brought together were a result of the evidence. I want to see young people in secure families, where there is the support that they need. I am more than happy to share the evidence base that we have with the Member, but there is no doubt about it: if you look at the evidence, you see that a wide range of family factors impact on the chances of families being in poverty, which also have an impact on children's futures. That is what we are trying to address, but let us be honest at the same time: the Centre for Social Justice reports that the break-up of family relationships is one of the quickest routes into poverty. That is a concern, and we want to help address it. Unfortunately, children whose families break apart are more than twice as likely to experience poverty as those whose families stay together. I am not stigmatising anybody when I say that: it is a declaration of fact. That is where the evidence lies. That is why we want to support families and young people so that we can ensure that they have fulfilling and complete home and family lives.

The reason why I did not simply bring a strategy to the Executive table and throw it down in front of the Executive was that I wanted to make sure that it was realistic, affordable and deliverable. That is why I set up a working group with representatives of all Departments and asked them to come back to me with the actions that they could take forward. Those actions are what we have in the strategy. Departments have committed to delivering them, and I look forward to their doing so. At the same time, I hope that the strategy will be agile so that, when additional resource becomes available or if there are programmes that are a better use of money to tackle such issues, we can divert resources where necessary. The setting and monitoring of targets will follow in the action plan.

The Member had his line written before he even heard my statement. There has been no bluster from me today: I have been straightforward, upfront and honest. I have not put together a wish list strategy that is not affordable or deliverable. I have been very honest and upfront with people. The co-design group will, no doubt, makes its views heard. Its members have already been on the airwaves making their thoughts known, although they told me that they will engage with their organisations before they make final comments. The Member demonstrates again how he gets things wrong. In calling for a rent cap, he is proposing something that will hurt people more in the longer term. The evidence that we have demonstrates that rent caps would drive people from the market and drive up the costs for all the other homes that are left in the private rented sector.

I know that, in his world, there are very simple answers to complex problems. However, what those simple answers will do is end up hurting people more, including the people whom he claims to represent.

I believe that what we have here is a good start. I am open to hearing other people's views on that, as well as the views of other Ministers, if they want to bring forward any other proposals. However, I have here a plan that, first and foremost, will tackle the root causes of poverty. Yes, that is about increasing incomes, but it is also about making sure that we reduce costs. That is the work that I have been getting on with, particularly in housing, in order to make sure that housing is more affordable and that people can heat their homes, which is one of the biggest outgoings that they have. I will not be distracted from that work. I will keep doing it, because I am here to deliver for people across Northern Ireland.

3,489 words. Text as published by the Northern Ireland Assembly.

Assessment

Not flagged

Jev’s structured answers

Assessed 21 October 2026 at 12:47 UTC by jev-1.13.0 (requested as typesafe/jev) under rubric 2026.10-r9, methodology 1.9.

Disagree with this assessment?

Classifications can be challenged. A person reads every challenge, and any change is recorded publicly above with its reason.

Challenge this classification