Debate contribution: Budget (No. 2) Bill: Second Stage

Debate contribution by Mr John O'Dowd on 9 June 2025.

MLA

Mr John O'Dowd

Party at the time

Sinn Féin

Date

9 June 2025

Type

Debate contribution (made as a minister)

Business

Question for Urgent Oral Answer

Heading

Budget (No. 2) Bill: Second Stage

Assembly identifier

Official Report component 4997748

Read the official Assembly record

Text

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I welcome the contributions from Chairs, Deputy Chairs and other spokespersons on the Budget (No. 2) Bill. As I have said before, it is useful to hear the views of the respective Committees and of Members on the important financial and economic issues that the Administration face. I have noted a number of issues that colleagues have raised today, and I will endeavour to get through as many of them as possible. To Mr O'Toole, I say that I welcome the strong working relationship between the Committee for Finance and the Department, despite the odd blip and issues that have arisen of late. I hope that that relationship continues. A number of Members mentioned the comprehensive spending review that will be announced in Westminster on Wednesday. It is my intention to make a statement to the Assembly on Monday, although a lot, if not all, of the detail will become clear during the Chancellor's statement. I will be here on Monday to present my understanding of the position and to take questions from colleagues. It is also my intention to publish the Holtham report on Monday and put it in the public domain. The Department continues to work on finalising the five-year plans for the autumn, in tandem with work on a three-year Budget before its publication in the autumn or late winter. The Budget will then go out to consultation so that it can then be ratified within its normal time frame. The next move is then to hold further discussions with the Treasury on the fiscal framework. All of that will become clear as part of my statement on the comprehensive spending review to the Assembly next Monday. As leader of the Opposition, Mr O'Toole questioned the targets in the Programme for Government and the Budget and how they match up. He gave a figure of £321 million. I argue that Departments will need to see a realignment across their funding streams as we move forward, particularly given a three-year Budget, but a lot of the work that already goes on in Departments can and does align with the Programme for Government. He chose a figure out of those. I would argue that the figure is closer to £425 million. His sums were a wee bit askew. He said that 2% of the £27 billion in funding is going towards the Executive's Programme for Government. He will be acutely aware that the Executive control around £16 billion of that. The other £11 billion is annually managed expenditure and is set for issues such as benefits and other matters. He will be acutely aware of that, but I suppose that imaginative figures are all part of the debate. The reality remains that the Executive have made steps forward in tackling issues such as waiting lists. There is £215 million to cut waiting lists and improve elective care; £50 million towards childcare; £15 million towards skills; and £5 million towards Lough Neagh. The Executive have stepped forward to deal with a range of other issues and have started to shape the Programme for Government on the basis of the priorities of the people whom we serve. Of course people should challenge us. They should challenge me as Finance Minister and the Communities Minister on the social housing issue. The year is not yet over. The Communities Minister will bring a plan to the Executive. I look forward to hearing his plan for how we will fulfil the targets for this year and as we move forward. Mr O'Toole claimed that there is no plan for NI Water — I beg to disagree — and for how we will deal with our waste water infrastructure and all those challenging issues. The sustainable urban drainage systems (SuDS) legislation will, I believe, be before the Chamber in the near future. The current public consultation on developer charges closes on 27 June. The Executive will continue their rolling investment in NI Water, both at the start of the budgetary year and during the year through monitoring rounds. As part of the transformation projects, £15 million was awarded to the Department for Infrastructure for an urban drainage pilot project to transform the way in which rainwater is managed in our towns and cities, because we send millions, if not billions, of cubic litres of water to waste water treatment works that we should not send. If we can manage that in a different way, let us do so. There is a plan. You may not agree with that plan. As I often say in the Chamber, if you do not like that plan, produce your own and let the public judge it. Colm Gildernew, as Chair of the Communities Committee, referred to the ongoing welfare cuts and the plans by the current Labour Administration to implement further welfare cuts. Those will have a significant impact on all our communities. Given their change of mind on the winter fuel payment, I hope that the Government will also change their mind on those welfare cuts and reverse that policy. Diane Forsythe —.

I will, yes.

In fairness, I will refer to that next Monday in my statement and give details of my engagement with the Treasury in that regard. Diane Forsythe referred to the need for an improved funding package, which everyone in the Chamber agrees with, apart, maybe, from Mr Gaston. A number of Members raised the importance of a three-year Budget. As I said, that will be a game changer. We will still have a restricted Budget, but the ability to plan for a three-year Budget will allow not only for services to be delivered more effectively and efficiently but for transformation. Ms Forsythe also referred to the publication of the new procurement policy, which is a strategic step forward. It may not be the most attractive of documents for public debate and discourse, but it is an important policy that will, I hope, provide us with a more efficient and effective way of procuring goods and services for our public services. A number of Members touched on the issue of taxation on family farms. I hope that the current Government will have a change of heart on how they plan to impose inheritance tax on family farms. Eóin Tennyson referred to the absence of the Opposition Members during his contribution. Apparently, Opposition Members were absent during that. I have to say that I never noticed, but apparently they were.

I do not want to follow you down into the gutter, but I have to: there are four of his colleagues here. Mr Tennyson also said that he is looking forward to an announcement on the remaining £109 million in relation to the public-sector transformation board. I hope to be in a position in late summer to make further announcements on that. The Executive have now agreed the terms of reference and the appointment of new board members. I await sign-off on that from the Secretary of State. Once that is achieved, the board can get down to seeking further bids from Departments for the transformation fund, which has been a remarkably successful project. Robbie Butler set out the challenges facing the Department of Agriculture and how the Committee is working with the Minister and engaging and also exercising the challenge function, which is quite proper. He too referred to the farm inheritance tax. Philip McGuigan pointed out the trajectory of the Health spend. It is currently at £8·4 billion but has risen considerably over the past number of years. As I have said before, I will work with all Ministers, including the Health Minister, on the challenges that they face, but we cannot continue with the journey that we are on with Health funding. It will consume the entire Executive Budget. That is simply undoable. As I have said, I will work with all Ministers, including the Health Minister with regard to the challenges that are faced in the Health budget and the actions that are required to bring that spend under control. I turn to Justice again. A number of Members mentioned the PSNI and the challenges facing it and the entire Justice Department, whether it is overcrowded prisons, the crumbling estate or the delay in justice. I am acutely aware of all those things. I will work with the Justice Minister and the PSNI on the workforce recovery plan. The argument has been made about recruitment. However, the PSNI also has to work with us: every time that I sit down to look at funding for the PSNI, I cannot get past the £100 million that we will have to hand out in relation to the data leak. I encourage all organisations not to make our jobs any harder than they are already. Paula Bradshaw referred to the diverse role of TEO and to the Beijing office. It is not my role to set policy or direction for any of the Departments, whether the office is in Beijing or Belfast. Committees have to continue their challenge and support function with regard to those. It strikes me, as an observer, that having a presence in the second-largest economy — it will be the largest economy — in the world is a sensible thing. Jemma Dolan called on the Government to make the right choices. I support her on that. Steve Aiken touched on the issues of the comprehensive spending review and the winter fuel allowance etc. Nick Mathison said that we need to have an ambition for something better. I assure him that I do and that, as we move into a three-year budgetary process, I want to see that being not simply a 1 by 3 multiplication but a transformation process whereby we deliver better services and support our public-sector workers. Timothy Gaston thinks that we have enough at £30 billion. As I said, around £16 billion of that is under the direct control of the Executive.

I congratulate him for working for free because, apparently, he is totally opposed to the Assembly Commission's budget. Congratulations to him and all his office workers, who work for free.

It is a credit to him, and he deserves admiration for it. Well done on that one. The Member will realise that, to run this place, they have to pay us, all the people who work in this Building and the people who work with us to deliver the services.

He is quite right to challenge — as are all Members, and it was a common theme throughout the discussion — Ministers and Departments to run an effective and efficient service. He is quite right to do that, but to suggest that no money is being spent on Health is incorrect, there is —

He has said that when people ask him, as an MLA, "What is my budget being spent on?", he says that none is being spent on hospital wards. There is £8·4 billion being spent in the health service, over £3 billion is being spent in Education and just under £3 billion, or thereabouts, in Justice. It tallies up, but can we deliver an effective and efficient service? We have to make sure that we do, but we also have to remember that, despite our obvious political differences around the constitutional question, I do not wake up every morning and praise the Lord that the British Government are responsible for our well-being and our affairs.

You will not be surprised to hear that. The reality is that I suspect that we are going to continue to live under a British Government that are going to continue to underfund our public services for a variety of reasons, including the fact that their economy is not going to grow, or is not forecast to grow, significantly over the next number of years. Whereas, if you look to our neighbouring jurisdiction, next door, its economy is growing. Look at the surplus that it currently has. I think, in fairness, the people who live on this island can manage this island much better than those who live on our neighbouring island. We may disagree on that point, but I believe that if we are serious about a significant improvement in the well-being and investment in our public services, the constitutional question has to remain front and centre. Gerry Carroll told us all off — all the Executive parties — but, unfortunately, he did not give us an alternative. I agree with some of the things that he said about economic policies, taxation policies and other matters, but, in reality, we are responsible for the day-to-day support that we deliver to public servants, and I stand by the Budget that we delivered a week ago and are now implementing. It is far from perfect, but we are using our resources as best we can to support public-sector workers and public services while we continue to demand better from the Westminster Government.

In the absence of an Executive and the Assembly, things were actually worse. Last year, my predecessor, Caoimhe Archibald, secured an additional almost £600 million for public services. Here is a challenge for Mr Gaston as well: if the Executive and the Assembly were not here, that £600 million would not be available. When you hear the announcement from the Chancellor on Wednesday and my statement next Monday, you will see the benefits of having an Assembly and Executive. We secure improvements for public services. I am not suggesting that they are perfect; they are far from it. I am not defending the British Government's economic policy: I am totally opposed to it. However, I believe that the Assembly and Executive make a difference.

The challenges facing the current Labour Government in England, Wales, Scotland and elsewhere are clear for everybody to see. I stand by my record, and the Executive can stand by their record, of engaging with the Government and securing extra funding for this place, and we will continue to do so. With that, I draw my remarks to a close.

2,345 words. Text as published by the Northern Ireland Assembly.

Assessment

Not flagged

Jev’s structured answers

Assessed 21 October 2026 at 12:47 UTC by jev-1.13.0 (requested as typesafe/jev) under rubric 2026.10-r9, methodology 1.9.

Disagree with this assessment?

Classifications can be challenged. A person reads every challenge, and any change is recorded publicly above with its reason.

Challenge this classification